Kyle R Williams

Intro

In June, I attended a virtual talk led by Elizabeth Leiba and Mita Mallick. They encouraged everyone to introduce themselves(i.e., share contact info, linkedin profiles, etc…). And being the “collector of friends” that I am, I quickly posted my profile and started connecting and DMing with other participants. Several will likely show up in future posts!

Kyle R Williams and I connected over our shared experiences in “dadlife,” education, and founding non-profits. After a few introductory virtual coffees, I asked if he would be open to recording our next conversation to highlight the success he has had in building A Long Talk, an anti-racism program that invites participants into conversation and deep connection.

Kyle’s worked with dozens of corporate companies, higher education institutions, and employees at every level of the corporate ladder, who are striving to make a better world for ourselves and our kids. I encourage you to check out his program and reflect on how you are making deep connections in your community (IRL or virtual, personal or professional) and what you can be doing to prepare the world for the incredible gifts that our children bring into it rather than preparing our children for the world as it is.

peace,brian…

Resources

A Long Talk

How to be an Anti-Racist by Ibram X Kendi

My Grandmother’s Hands by Resmaa Menakam

Transcript

(captured by Otter.ai)

Brian: All right, hello, everyone. I here with another episode of our dads and dialog conversations. This time I've invited Kyle Williams, who I think we just became friends like three, four weeks ago. This has been a whirlwind romance, bromance kind of thing, but part of what set out to me with Kyle is his work, not just as a father, but as a advocate around social justice and educating all of us on what it means to be a good person, and his work through the long talk program that he's developed. So I won't say more. I want you to kind of share what it is and and what you and how you kind of got into this work like you shared with me a few, few weeks ago.

Kyle: Yeah, no, definitely, essentially, in the last five years, I've created a conversation. It's an anti racism activation experience, but it's really, it's really a war against ignorance, racism, sexism, homophobia, but better ways to have conversations with people. And my kids hired me for this work. I don't have a dei background, but my children had a challenge, and I reached out to some people that I thought needed the help, and they stepped up, and by their inspiration, we were able to start a conversation that kept going further and further, and now, five years later, an uncomfortable conversation about race between a black father and a white basketball coach has now become, I would say, the leading movement of anti racism in the country right now. We talked to over 25,000 people. We work with some of the top universities organizations in the country, we're hooking right now up where we're starting to work in churches and schools, and it's all over the place, because people that like you said, it's just time to do the right thing. You know, we have to activate and do the right thing, and we first have to understand that. So we've been able to to create something that people keep wanting to have a conversation about, and it gives me a chance to meet incredible people like yourself.

Brian: Thank you. Thank you. I'll send you the check later. So I'm curious, like in the work that I used to do with fathering together and engaging with dads and running programs, we had lots of people go through programs, lots of people in conversations at varying stages of their own identity and development. But I found, like, the most rewarding were in the one on one conversations, whether it was a zoom screen or not, right? Like, it's just that one on one connection. And I'm curious. Like, how do you, like, you mentioned the coach that you talked to, but how, like, how do you foster those one on one conversations, rather than, you know, I'm the expert at the front of the room, you know, like you said, you didn't get officially trained in this. So, yeah, just curious how you go backwards engineering stuff.

Kyle: The beautiful thing about it that this was built in the middle of COVID 2020. Was beginning of COVID, as you say, and so this was built about a conversational zoom, where all of us were making connections with people that we either knew or didn't know over these new, you know, over this zoom screen with all these different spaces, and because we built an interactive experience throughout that, we use the chat feature people talking. So even if it's me talking, and there's 30 people on Zoom, we're having a conversation. People are sharing. People are putting in a chat. And it's definitely not me. I'm really just sharing some things that there's no new history in this. Yeah. You know, part of what we do is we introduce, there's an 80 minute video called the history of race in America that everybody needs to watch before they join the conversation. And we just believe, once people watch that video, that most people say, Damn, I didn't know all that we should probably do something about. Yeah, you know, the people that don't agree with that don't have to show up, because the best thing about what I do is not mandatory, for anybody, sure. So for me, I'm looking for people that want to understand that we believe we can educate to indeed, we believe that if most people knew better, they would do better. So we try to educate people and get them to understand there's a really big depth that we have to crawl out of in terms of what white supremacy has done in this country against black people and, you know, all types of other marginalized people, women, all kinds of things. So when people really understand the depth now, they understand the amount of work it takes to get out. And I think that's the difference between us, is that we're not meeting to start another conversation. We're having an activation experience to be able to get to work. Yeah, so we're not having a lot of conversations about this. Yeah. We're gonna talk about it and get everybody on board. We're gonna board. We'll teach you how to use your voice to do something, and we're gonna have a community of people that keep doing it. It's not real complicated. So that's inspiring for me.

Brian: Yeah, well, and what you said there too, like, white supremacy hurts everybody, right? Like, obviously the most overt stuff is free for people like you and other people who have been marginalized and pushed to the side. But I remember, Gosh, 15 years or so ago, I was in a room, we were listening to this white minister who had moved to Guatemala to he felt called as a minister to go help people who were affected by these landslides and mudslides and whole villages were just destroyed in Guatemala. And he was like, You know what? As a Christian, as a minister, I need to go there and support them. And he, he's been doing it ever since, and and then here we were, you in Seattle, in this very affluent university setting, and he pointed across the the lake, or whatever, yeah, lake, the lake, to where Microsoft offices are in the Seattle area, and he's like, you know, I had to go all the way to Guatemala to learn this. But there's people just across the river, just across the lake, just across your street, that look very affluent and have a lot of positive things in their life, and they've got real pain that no one wants to address, no one wants to acknowledge. And there was something about that that struck me, and I was just like, Okay, this is going to be my Guatemala moment, right? Like, there are plenty of white men who don't realize how much pain is getting placed on them because of this patriarchal, white supremacist kind of world that we've invented, largely white men have invented, right? And it's self inflicting. And so I my hope in the work that I do, and in talking with you and other men, is like, how do we not reinvent a new system that, you know, just reinvents a structure that puts somebody else up on top, and then everybody's still in pain, right? I think there's, and that's what the magic of the, not the magic, I should say, but the power of these one on one conversations, these experiences where you're activating, not to, you know, go out and hurt people, but to educate, like you say, educate and open our eyes to a better path that is hairy and sticky and gross to get through, but when we get to the other side, there's a lot of healing and beauty that comes with it.

Kyle: Absolutely, I'll say this, you know, empathy and changes everything. Yeah, when you talk about one on one conversations, relationship building, it's hard to hate your neighbor, right? But when we live in segregated societies, when we go to segregated churches, when we attend segregated schools, when we go to PWIs or HBUs, when we work at jobs where there's one or two, like, when we live in those spaces, it's easier to hate those that you don't know. So like, when we don't get a chance to stop and talk, I could have walked past you in a hotel lobby and didn't know anything about you. You might have had, you know, a bad bass fisherman hat on. I might have had some different type of idea about you all together, you know what I'm saying, like, just off of that, and never would have known you would have walked by. But the idea is that if we can have some relationship, and I think that's why what we build again is called a long talk, because it's not just having we need to have multiple conversations. We need I need to learn from you, and you need to learn from me. And it become not so much about my my experience and being me. What we've been able to have is an experience of listening to each other, talking to each other, making each other think a little bit more about what's the norm that we've grown up around. And once we do that, I think that again, like you said, when people can understand and empathize and have some care and concern, it totally changes the way people's perspective of what the future needs to be or what the present needs to look like, because there are different expectations for everybody, not just for yourself.

Brian: Yeah, what was something that, like, surprised you like looking back, getting into this, like, what is something that when you look back, you're just like, oh, I never expected that to happen. Or here's like, other than me, of course, your new best friend, who was somebody that you were like, oh shit. Like, I'm so glad they, like, entered into this long talk with me, and can now change this part.

Kyle: all surprises me, because no one that knows me, yeah, would ever think I'd be doing this, yeah, when I mean by that, when I graduated from high school, it did not say most likely to solve societal problems of white people in my body. It just wasn't part of my plan. I was navigating white supremacy. If I was a militant or anything, I would tear this thing down. I was there. I was a whole different place. So it also, and what surprised me, I grew up thinking that white people didn't care, because I'm like, How could you like, how do you not care? How do you not see us and not care? And then I realized they really didn't know, right? It's ignorance that was the most surprising thing was, and it was the that's why I went from there's a quote that I use was everything changed the day I learned that you're not that you're not my enemy, you're my that you're my lesson and not my enemy. And when I first met that first coach, BJ Dunn, the first one that had this conversation, when I realized as good of a person as he was, he couldn't relate to anything I was saying when I was talking about this long history of white supremacy. And he was trying to but he couldn't get it. But once he understood it, his empathy kicked, and he was able to do something right, because I'm like, he was a good person, and I realized he did care, he just didn't know, and once he knew, he was off and running. So my thing was, it was a war against the ignorance, and I realized that it was intentional. Of course, it was intentional for white people to not think they're supposed to know or care, because if you don't know about something, you're not going to care about it. You're not going to do anything about it, right, right? So the best way to maintain a status quo white supremacy is to have white people not even knowing they're part of it, right? Because you gotta be able to push back. So I think it's that was the most exciting, and then the fact that people were willing to listen. I think I probably thought that before, but in 50 years, or 48 years before that, I probably wouldn't think there was going to be an audience for to be an audience for it, yeah, you know. And then the video comes out where everybody says, Wait, what were they saying before? What are they even talking about? I just happen to catch a conversation that people were listening to, that people have continued to listen to. And I caught a moment, you know. And I think so. I think the the surprising part was I said it with all my unapologetic blackness, my anger. The first time I ever I was gonna do this one time, yeah, so my thing was, my surprise was, I said what I said, it was received, responded and people took off. It connected with enough people. Yeah, bristle enough feathers, which is a surprise. But I was surprised that we went to places like Yale and Wharton Business School and, you know, I know the medical systems and different places that you didn't think people wanted to hear this voice that we've been able to talk to the last five years. So I think it's been surprising. Is a great way. Is the response that there are people like you, there are people that I would have walked by and thought nothing of connecting with that are actually a part of the solution to get this thing done. So, yeah, I'm blessed, man, yeah.

Brian: Well, and I think that again, that's part of the the system, right? The system is meant to overwhelm and scare us and make us look for easy solutions. I was talking with someone earlier, like anybody with a simple message is going to get a following any like, simple stuff goes viral, right? Long, big posts don't go viral on any of the social media, but the simple, easy stuff goes viral, or the funny little 10 second fail or whatever. And so, of course, like when you make stuff out to be an easy like, Oh, you, your life sucks. Well, vote for me. I've got a solution, and they scapegoat somebody else, or make it seem so simple that they have an answer, and and it go, you know, it's not just the right or the left, it's everybody right. It is not a political statement. This is just how people work. And so for me, it's like, okay, how do I, how do I simplify what I need to say? Because being a dad is complicated enough, right? As you know, trying to get our kids to understand stuff in simple terms, or how to, how do you take complex stuff that we deal with and simplify it for our kids, right? But I'm curious, like, you named all these amazing places, right? Like Wharton and medical systems and stuff. How do you like, how do you evolve and grow a long talk, right? Because obviously, like, the 80 minute video is what it is. It's been produced, it's there, but conversations are live, right? And and they evolve. And different topics come up every year. Like pre COVID life looked different, same shit, but looked a little different. So how, like, how do you evolve in academics? It's, how do you evaluate and assess, you know, the program and evolve it to the needs of of the audience, so to speak?

Kyle: Yeah. I think the beautiful thing about it, beautiful. The simple thing, as you talk about keeping it simple, is that the history of this hasn't changed, right? So whenever we tell this story, there's 2020, or 2025, educating people on the history of what race and white supremacy have done in America. That doesn't have to that doesn't have to change much. Actually, it might give me one or two extra slides to throw in on top of be like, hey, look what's going on right now. Like, if anything else, but the core of that doesn't change. But also, what it does evolve, though, is that the skill that we teach the CPR protocols and interactivation, we give you a skill that you're gonna learn, how to use your words and ask questions, to use critical thinking to combating ignorance. And that ignorance comes in a new way, a new shape, every day, every form, so that back by you evolving your ability to ask questions, whether it's about immigration, that's the what's on the what's on the mouths today, right? So whether it's immigration, whether it's going to be criminal reform, whether it's, you know, black lives matter, whatever the topic of the day is, what we teach is a skill on how to use your how to use the your critical thinking questions, to push back against it. So the foundational stuff of what we do, it evolves to whatever the day is, because it's built on history, and it's a skill that can be used at any time into the future. What I love about it is that outside of our core experience, we do have a universe, a platform of people, where people come together and post general discussions or topic questions around stuff that's going on right now and then on a monthly basis, we have conversations because all we want to do is keep the conversation going. People have to learn how to become more easy, more more at ease talking about uncomfortable things, right? Being able to disagree seriously with somebody about keeping respect while keeping people's honor, and while, you know, I mean, while they're not feeling like I'm that I'm being attacked for my opinion, it's okay. I just want people to say it clearly, yeah, and understand it deeply. If you can say it clearly, understand it deeply. I respect whatever it is that you say. I just don't want to hear people regurgitating things they really don't understand or have thought about themselves. That's the danger spot that we're in when it comes to having these conversations. So what we push even people we agree with see what we teach people in our stuff is, even if you agree with somebody, you can ask them questions and see how deeply they understand. Does their own beliefs stand up to scrutiny, if you will. Of why do you think about this, have you thought about this, even just to help them get more deeply embedded in the cause? Yeah, but it's important to better ask those as well. So I think, I think it evolves along with the culture, because it's core is so foundational.

Brian: yeah, yeah, no. I mean, I love it. Who are people that inspire you in this work, that keep you going when you're having a rough day, or when a conversation doesn't doesn't pan out as you expect.

Kyle: Um, I mean, there's so many voices. I think there are, you know, obviously there are my contemporaries, my team, you know, come all my, you know, my team, Shane and my son, Elijah, that works for me, and my sister Wendy and all kinds. You know, we have a team of people that rely on all of us to do our job, to push it forward. We're not a very large group. We have, you know, literally only a few full time people that do this while others maintain other parts. But so that was my first level of my contemporaries. But then, I guess historically, I mean, I look at it when I first, kind of had to have my own breakthrough as I first, I didn't want to want to, want to do it, I didn't want to teach people. I figured this out, like I was still a little angry. I was still in different place. And then I realized that, you know, I feel like I've been past a baton in a relay race. So I really have seen, over the last, you know, over the last 10 years in this country, that in many ways, we have white supremacy on the ropes, and that's why you've seen such a violent and such a in your face, arrogant response. That's what it's always done. Yeah? When it's been threatened at the highest level, it comes back to with fear and through intimidation and just through ignorance and just to push through. And we are we're seeing that, which means that it feels threatened. Yeah, right, institution. And so for me, I believe that there have only been certain times in American history where there has been a constant threat that has changed and evolved in one way or another. At least even have to ramp it up. Reconstruction Era, all kind of, I think we're in our third reconstruction right now. Yeah, that's what I believe, right? So my thing is this, if all I have to do is travel around the country and have patience with white people and talk to them about wanting to do something and just talking to people, and I say white people, because that's the majority of the people I speak to, but everybody being able to get on board, like you said, this has affected everybody. So how do we get everybody on board to want to push back? And if that's all I have to do, I don't have to, you know, be enslaved. I don't have to escape slavery to get to move forward. I don't have to, you know, walk to work 380 days, or whatever. You know I'm saying. I don't have to do that kind of be beaten. I have to have the government wiretapping me. I don't think. I don't know.

Brian: We’ll find out. We'll find out.

Kyle: But, but, you know, I mean, but I don't have to have all I gotta do is stop and ask questions and challenge people and teach people and host a platform and get on podcasts and talk about a movement that's going, Yeah, it's passing the baton. Let's finish the race. Yeah? Like, if that's seriously where we are. Because I do believe if, right now, we raise one generation of white children who are able to identify and interrupt all the remnants of white supremacy, it's a wrap. Yeah, they're armed and they're ready. They've seen enough. Yeah, they've seen enough. And they see the rise of the people that they didn't like in the lock in the lunchroom. Yeah, they see the rise of the people that are only have that to hold on to. And we can make sure that the next generation has enough sensibility to match with their power, because when the boomers are dead and gone, they're going to be in charge, and just one change that out. What are they gonna do? They're not gonna do anything from the greatness. Nope. We're not doing it anymore. Yeah.

Brian: So I mean, and you see that, like, all over, right? Like, I'm born and raised Catholic, you have other institutional faith traditions losing members for new ways of engaging, and a lot of that is pushed back to the institution of the gatekeepers and the power structures. And you see, I mean, I've seen so many friends adapting their social media strategies and and programs and offerings because they don't want to be beholden to just a handful of people that happen to be at the right place to write the right code at the right time, you know? And and for my daughters, yeah, they I'm glad you said your son, because my daughters inspire me left and right for lots of reasons, but, like, especially when George Floyd was murdered, my daughter's best friend was a black kid down the street, and you know, he is the most, nicest, innocent boy that I've ever met. Like, love that kid, and my daughter's freaking out that, you know, her friend's not gonna could end up like him, right? And then she's five, right? This is she's five or six when this is going on. And I'm just like, we're not gonna let that happen, right? Like, and it dawned on me, though, in that moment, like all of the bullshit and preconceived prejudices and all that kind of stuff that are just have been ingrained from years of me growing up in a part of America that was okay with the pain and the suffering, right? And so I'm like, Okay, I got to make the world ready for you. I don't need to prepare you for the world. Let's get the world ready for you and and, and get me out of the way, right? And, and so many conversations I've had as a dad with my girls has been more like not apologizing, right? It's not like I'm saying I'm sorry all the time, because I definitely do that too much, but, but it's more like letting them know, like, hey, sometimes mom and dad are set in our ways, or we're not ready, like you're ready to jump because you realize, like they're introspective. They know their skills, they know their have, their confidence is and, and they're ready to be move up that developmental ladder that I didn't realize they were ready for. And, and it's great, it's powerful, but it's also just like, Shit, I'm becoming obsolete, or I'm on the roads, right? And so it's like, I dig in, or I get stubborn, and so it's like a microcosm of that larger thing. And so that's why I love, like, getting to know you. I'm really thinking through, okay, how do I incorporate this stuff into my fatherhood? Work with guys that are, like, holding on to something that they didn't ever really want. They just were taught that they wanted it, and they didn't take the time to think, oh, wait a minute, there's a better way here. Like, like you're saying, like, we got to disrupt it. Just one generation of disruption, just just stop at one time, and the telephone game breaks, and then you can make it up from there.

Kyle: Absolutely. That's all you need. That's why I say it's the it's the reconstruction moment, right? We broke the chain at one point. Now the backlash comes, but we broke the chain of slavery, and we had the Reconstruction Era, right? Then we had Jim Crow. We broke the chain legislatively, with the civil rights era, and then you had to assassinate I'm saying there's always pushback. So when we're trying to break the information and the empathy, we're trying to break the chains of empathy to have people care enough to just do the right thing. Nobody's asking for extra handouts. We say, do the right thing, and if you do the right thing, everything else will take care of itself. But that's you're right. That's the time that we're in right now. I believe I love what you said about not like getting the world ready for them, because, of course, obviously the you know, my family, my children, you know, as part of the that's the only experience as a dad, I got that that almost comes without even saying right, that I feel like my whole life, since they've gotten there, has been focused on making sure my kids were right. You mentioned how you had daughters. How old are your daughters?

Brian: Yeah, they're 11 and nine. Well, almost done next week. No, sorry, tomorrow, tomorrow, my daughter turns nine, so Okay, yeah, we got some birthday prep tonight anyway. And your kids are grown, though, like college, post college?

Kyle: yeah, 26, 24, and 20. What you were talking about, though, was interesting, because I actually wrote a note. Actually was off on the side. But what you said about the phases that your children go through, like what I have seen and now you're what you're saying already in the 11, like, is, and I wrote this down. Where I write this down? I said that you have the youth to, like, 11 or 12, yeah, right. And that's when you are their whole world, like you, they're they're learning everything from you. You're teaching them everything about it doing. And then you have, like, they break into the teens, right? And so they have their friend groups, right? And then you hope that you're just helping them to see the world, like, right? Check in with me. I want you to check. I'm gonna try to show you what's going on right now. And then, what I've gotten since then is that you have then you have them when they, like, finish college, and they're out during college, they're out in the world, right? So now you're not getting the report. You don't know exactly what's going on. They're not around, and you don't really know what's happening, but you're hoping they just survive in the world. And then the next phase that I'm looking forward to with them is that when they become the adults, and they have the responsibilities of others, and they got to go through those things. But it was, it was interesting when you said that about how it changed shifts. I remember when the eras some faces I was better than his dad. I didn't understand at first, but I figured. And I also had the blessing of having three, so the third one probably had the best one, because I've made mistakes always. That's them. So you do benefit from that, five or six years later with my maturity and learn from them, I've been able to see this for a little bit. and the interesting thing with him, though, so he's the only one that doesn't when when we when my ex wife and I divorced, he was two, okay, so he had really no memory of anything other than our joint custody, where, like, the kids went back every, every Friday. We switched for years. And so they were growing at the college, yeah, um, they were nine, seven and two. So his, he actually learned my very much. How did you know how you deal with your mother for a week, probably for a week, yeah, and because he was the baby in the scenario both times, and we were kind of now single parents raising them, he definitely didn't like, he definitely got some really, like he was baby in the sense of the other two have more responsibility, because it was, like it was me and those guys, and we had to make sure he was okay, right? So I definitely see how he had a much different experience, which comes though, again, from just I was a better dad, too, by the time I got to him, by the time I, you know, my Yeah, well, I was, I was a single dad all of a sudden, and with a nine year old, a seven year old, a two year old. And now you know that first week from our split, that was the first week I had 100% responsibility for everything they needed since they had been there, yeah, since they had shown up. And so it changed, and it shifted a lot for who I needed to be, and I had to go through some growth and development to become a better dad. And so he just didn't catch the brunt of it as a nine year old who's trying to, you know, push through the world. So, yeah, he definitely benefited from that, from that time lapse,

Brian: There's so many moments where I look back and I'm like, Oh, this was the best age, or this is the best age. And every, every age is the best, right? Because you're growing along with them. But I had a good friend, and we'll end on this because we're close to time. But I had a good friend tell me that in high school, he realized he shifted from parent to advisor. And, you know, like he was 15, and he realized my son doesn't need me in the way that he did it two or three, right? Like my son is strong and great and amazing, and his daughter was right behind him, and he's like, I just need to advise now. I need to step back and, like, offer up ideas and possible solutions and let them get to the final solution, or otherwise, they're going to be babies forever, and nobody wants that, right?

Kyle: As you said, You made me remind me of something I remember when I was my when my when they were young, and their mother was like, we were having a discussion about him, and I finally said to I said, I'm, you know, I'm raising men like you're taking care of babies and raising men but the but I remember when we were going through our marital our premarital counseling with church, and the pastor said, your job is to raise them to leave you. Yeah, the whole plan is to get them ready to be gone, right? And, I mean, I was like, Oh yeah, you got eight it's an 18 year runway, yes, to send you on your way to be a productive human being. And it made it manageable for me, because I was overwhelmed as a young father. I was like, Oh my God. I was overwhelmed. But that made it manageable for me, which is to get that over. And so I think for for me, and I know as you talk about the fatherhood and this, I think at the end of the day, this is what I can say to you in my days as a teacher, when I taught kids who went in third grade and they came back to my school 15 years later, with, you know, their first year. So but I can tell you that you the you said about the best days are ahead, because the best days are when you see all the work that you're doing, all the things they're not getting right now, the things that they don't seem to understand yet. Yeah, when you see it play out in real life, that when they have an extra dollar and they give it to somebody, yeah, when they all the things you're talking about, when they don't when they have the agency to be able to do those things. And so I'm now at the space where my son, you know, 26 he has a job. Is living in New York, um, my other son, 24 he's doing social media for our company, doing some incredible things and learning AI and teaching, like, his incredible space. And then my third one, you know, as a college basketball player at Georgetown, like they're, they're living their dreams in a way. So now I can sit back, like you said, as the advisor, yeah, now I can sit back and like, All right, now I'm just, I just want to help you keep the wings left, yeah, like you, you've taken off. You've done them around. We've done the hard work of the heavy lift. Right now we're just gonna, kind of, you know, put it in there. Hopefully you can get to a place where you can build a career, put it on autopilot for a little while, and help a lot of other people while you're at it, you know. I mean, just take off on a journey. So it's a great, it's a great journey of fatherhood. There's a lot of bumps and bruises, and for some people, I knock on wood, thankfully for not for me, but catastrophes and tragedies. But I think for the most part, the good stuff is really, really good, and it's worth the work, and it's worth the growth, and it's worth taking us up in the mirror and saying, I gotta do better for these folks, because they don't. They only should know the best of me. I only want them to the best of me, right? So let me work on at least being the best like I can move forward. So this is a great man. It's a great idea. I'm glad you connected with me on this and anything I can do. You know further this cause for sure? well, we'll stay in touch.

Brian: Oh, we got plenty. We got many miles to go before we rest. But, but for now, we'll say goodbye to our audience. Hopefully a handful of folks are listening and got this far, but we'll pause for here and say, See you next week. And yeah, thanks everybody for listening in Thank you.